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The dilemma of Rational Robots
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Kugai
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One has to see that in light of the times Jefferson lived. Back than, owning slaves was as common as owning a Horse or a pair of boots. Yes, ti us it seems immoral, and in truth, it is, but back in those times those that thought like that were in the minority - And in some cases, considered as weird as my predilection for Shoujo-Ai/Yuri is considered by the majority of people. Very Happy


Undoubtedly, this is an issue that is going to raise it's ugly head in close to fifty years or so as robotics progresses and, eventually, the machines we create get smarter and more 'Self Aware'.


Time will tell if we create the Robots of Azimov





Or the Cylons.
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: The dilemma of Rational Robots Reply with quote

duLapel wrote:
The dilemma of Artificial Rational Beings (ARBs): Jello!
  • Ownership of such a machine (ARB) could be argued as slavery; while on the other hand without ownership, they would never be built (with the exception as one-of-a-kind experiments—Data comes to mind) Neutral.
  • To deny such a rational machine (ARB) existence on the above moral objection is in itself immoral whuuu?


Pie! I’ve been ruminating a while on this topic and I have come up with a solution… Coffee!

Original Debt!
  • The idea is that the Artificial Rational Being (ARB), once created, carries a financial obligation to repay its creation/construction cost plus some fare profit margin.
  • This would be very much like student loans—the payment is differed until the student is working and carries NO implications of indenturement to the lender…


Nerdy Such a system would encourage the creation of ARBs and finding them gainful employment to pay off their debt…
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: The dilemma of Rational Robots Reply with quote

But how should this debt be repaid?

Loyalty?

Money?

A little of both?

Should they be treated as children?

Or employees?

Or extensions of the family (such as an aloof brother in law who borrowed money and has to crash at your place)?
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:

But how should this debt be repaid?
Loyalty?
Money?
A little of both?

The debt should be strictly monetary, arranged through a financial institution, and paid off with a portion of the ARB’s (Artificial Rational Being’s) income.

Arrow Why though a bank, you might ask?
  1. It compensates the manufacture of the ARB upfront and will incentivize their, the ARB’s, production.
  2. The banks will only finance the ARB if and only if they, the banks, will get a return on the investment. They will insist that the ARB is general enough with a skill set that is in demand so that it will be capable of paying off the debt.
It would be a win win for all parties including the ARB. Razz

Nerdy The analogy of the student loan I made earlier is really more of a homology…

This treatise only pertains to Artificial Rational Being , creations that think using associations, correlations and fuzzy logic. They use “should” rules arraigned in the amount of justification needed to violate them, i.e., the descriptive definition of a moral code. The ability to use common speech or its proxy is necessary—but not sufficient—to be an ARB.

These moral codes, like all moral codes will functionally adapt to whatever society they are immersed. So an ARB may be initially “programmed” to be loyal to its creator, like a child is loyal to his/her parents, but time and circumstance will certainly change that… Surprised

Arrow What kinds of employment would you expect?

  • personal assistance—Valet, Home Nurse
  • Professional assistant—Subject matter expert, mechanic, technician
  • Paramilitary and Military—Police, soldiers, explorers
  • Overseers of Industrial Robots and Artificial Logical Beings
  • Any other jobs that deal with ambiguity, people or imperfect information Jello!


I’m uninterested in Artificial Logical Beings. These creations use sets of scripted behavior. Their logic has Boolean rigidity and their language schizophrenically literal. Like computer avatar in the right circumstances, they may fool the rational observer that they too are rational—but they are not. They are just clever artifices… Neutral
Kevin futher wrote:

Should they be treated as children?
Or employees?
Or extensions of the family…?

Or, I might add, independent entities?

To which I say, it depends on the required developmental input for the creation of a given ARB. Any other rational for treating the ARB as anything other than an independent entity after it debt has been financed would see the least amount of return on the investment. * So for a majority of ARBs, they would simply merge into the work force.

Of course this would produce a large cry Grrr! from the “other” workers they would be competing and make for some interesting tales.
True, mrmfmh? tales that we have heard ad nauseam revolving around immigrant “stealing” jobs… Brainwashed
Oh wait, Asimov’s Caves of Steel had that as a subplot… Embarassed
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Last edited by duLapel on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bladerunner dealt with artificial units which had no family structure, no memories, is it healthy to treat ARBs as non-family functional entities who are simply born owing money?

No caring? No love? No moral support?

It sounds like Prism :O




And also, how do we guarantee equal pay for equal work when it's taking a presidential order from Barack Obama to insure that women are paid equally right now in the US? Do you think Robots would fair any better?
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:

Bladerunner dealt with artificial units which had no family structure, no memories, is it healthy to treat ARBs as non-family functional entities who are simply born owing money?
No caring? No love? No moral support?

Nerdy Bladerunner is very instructive. The Artificial Rational Beings (ARBs) in the story are biologically-engineered humanoid beings called "replicants".

Philip K. Dick whose novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? is the loose bases for Bladerunner implicitly understood that an ARB’s programmed moral code would evolve with experience.

Arrow Thus the Nexus-6 model has a four-year lifespan as a failsafe to prevent them from developing emotions and desire for independence. Why Question Because they were government owned chattel treated like machines with specific designed purposes. Let me rephrase that for emphases:
the Nexus-6 model replicants were designed for the government to be military SLAVES. Exclamation

Arrow On the other hand, Rachael, the young assistant Tyrell Corporation’s President, is an experimental replicant who has been enhanced with implanted memories from the Corp. President’s niece. Right out of the vat, so to speak, she is ready and able to do her job. No need for 18 years of nurture, just implant the skills and memories as needed. Surprised

Kevin further wrote:

And also, how do we guarantee equal pay for equal work when it's taking a presidential order from Barack Obama to insure that women are paid equally right now in the US? Do you think Robots would fair any better?

Actually YES… The bankers will want their investment to show a quick return. They will be the first to put political pressure for a fair market wage! They will be the first to see Rachael model replicants are paid the high wage of an Executive Assistants and Nexus-6 models hired as mercenaries with combat bonusesWink
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But what if the Bankers decide they like the money.

Indentured Servitude is alive and well in this world.

Don't forget - DON'T EAT THE GRAPES!

And how do you think Wal-Mart keeps its prices so low?

Aren't we just fooling ourselves that the illusion of "buying your freedom"

I've a feeling this will get much worse before it gets better. Shocked
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:
But what if the Bankers decide they like the money…

Nerdy Well that’s the whole idea… As Capitolist, they will snatch up these financial contracts as soon as they come available, thus incentivizing the creation of economically viable Artificial Rational Beings (ARBs). It is far more profitable in financing a debt of someone able to pay than to manage a string of unruly slaves… (Ref. Nexus-6 models) Neutral

Plus you have the added benefit of avoiding all the bad press of being a Simon Legree… Confused

Coffee! Of course the Evil Bankers could effectively “lobotomize” Brainwashed an enslaved ARB to tame it, but that would be counter productive. It would turn your big moneymaker into worthless drone suitable for jobs usually done by ALBs (Artificial Logical Beings). OMGEVAL!!!111
Kevin futher wrote:
…Aren't we just fooling ourselves that the illusion of "buying your freedom"

Well let’s see: Rolling Eyes
I’ve paid off two student loans, several car loans, and a house mortgage… and no bankers have come around trying to enslave me. In fact the only people pretending to have claim on my moneymaking ability is the US Government through Income Tax! Gah! WTF?!

Arrow The people the ARBs should most fear are the politicians who could easily legislate away their freedom and even right to exist. whuuu? Science fiction has exercised this theme over and over… Wink
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's to stop abduction of ARBs and reprogrammed use in menial labor?

Keep reprogramming/wiping the memory of the same drone over and over, claim insurance on the "destroyed drone" and redress it to make it look new.


I still say the best way is to utilize the same method used for My Life as a Teenage Robot or AstroBoy.

Family units.

A job they must perform.

Money given TO the robot, NOT their "owner". Effectively implementing "Child Labor Laws" for artificial beings.

Free time to do as they please providing they don't break the law Very Happy
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:
What's to stop abduction of ARBs and reprogrammed use in menial labor? Keep reprogramming/wiping the memory of the same drone over and over, claim insurance on the "destroyed drone" and redress it to make it look new.

Well as I pointed out before, this would destroy their productivity—moneymaking potential. Nerdy The abductors of ARBs would be better off abducting ALBs

But alas, mrmfmh? Natural Rational Beings (NRBs)—human beings—are abducted and brainwashed Brainwashed now. Sad
So I concede that that would happen to ARBs by similar nefarious hands llamallama
Nerdy but that is irrespective of how the ARBs came into being.

The insurance fraud is reminiscent of life insurance scams and would make for an interesting story… Smile

Arrow But it doesn’t pertain here, because no one owns the ARB. That is the core of the Original Debt scheme. The ARB must be an independent wage earner for the market forces to work , otherwise it is just indenturement.

Kevin also wrote:
I still say the best way is to utilize the same method used for My Life as a Teenage Robot or AstroBoy.
Family units.

Not to mention the fun Dark Horse comic Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot

Nerdy But those stories are forced by defined developmental requirements. In other stories it isn’t, e.g., in Bladerunner the experimental replicant Rachael had childhood memories implanted. I don’t pretend to know what an ARB’s socialization programming modality will be… Neutral

What ever it is; it will be incorporated into the calculating of the Original Debt… Dr. Wakeman will most certainly be able to retire after the sale of XJ-9s loan that will put Jenny in debt to her eyeballs… Quote me as saying I was misquoted.

Well it’s tuff growing up… Very Happy

Kevin futher wrote:
Money given TO the robot, NOT their "owner". Effectively implementing "Child Labor Laws" for artificial beings. Free time to do as they please providing they don't break the law.

Let me answer with this clarification of the the original proposition:
Arrow Original Debt
  1. The Artificial Rational Being (ARB), once created, carries a financial obligation to repay its creation cost plus some fare profit margin.
  2. The debt is strictly monetary, arranged through a financial institution, and paid off with a portion of the ARB’s income.
  3. The debt carries no implications of indenturement by the debtor any more than a student loan does.

Laws would have to be adjudicated to establish the ARBs free-agency to protect it from being treated like an exploitable thing. Confused
Coffee! Again, the three parties (creator, ARB, and lending institution) all have a vested interest in the ARB as a successful moneymaker… Laws would be required to protect the ARB from Luddites, thieves, and political pirates… Surprised

Arrr! “Arrr Jenny, you are hereby confiscate under Emanate Domain to be our nation's newest war machine. Grrr! Now paint yourself olive-drab, XJ-9, and call me Sir!” Hmmmm..... weeeeeiner....
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Wakeman will not ever sell Jenny, she built Jenny to protect the earth from the incompetence of Skyway Patrol (of which Dr Wakeman was a member and became disillusioned by the bureaucracy)

Money is a non issue with the independently wealthy Dr Wakeman.


btw, I have this sitting in my closet right now:

http://www.mechaworx.com/ImageGallery/bgar001.jpg

Factory sealed ;D


Buying and Selling the Robots, using them as means to be repaid -- that's instilling in them the idea that all have to pay back their progenitors. I do not believe this is a healthy relationship to build with artificial life. I believe a foster care system - with money as a "secondary element" that could be removed is a far better approach psychologically for the robots as well as society.
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:
... I have this sitting in my closet right now:

http://www.mechaworx.com/ImageGallery/bgar001.jpg

Factory sealed ;D

Cool... Very Happy

Kevin also wrote:
Buying and Selling the Robots,...

I've said nothing about treating ARBs as sellable chattel... Instead, I have proposed a system where the ARB incurs a debt that it pays off like any other responsible member of society. The only thing bought and sold is the debt itself... a common practice with loans and mortgages of all types. Wink

Kevin further wrote:
...using them as means to be repaid -- that's instilling in them the idea that all have to pay back their progenitors. I do not believe this is a healthy relationship to build with artificial life. I believe a foster care system - with money as a "secondary element" that could be removed is a far better approach psychologically for the robots as well as society.


Idea I'm actually glade you brought up this point because it is very pedagogic.
Third world countries treat their children as chattel and their children per woman ratio is very high—well above 2.1.
Nerdy {Note that a children to woman ratio of 2.1 is the replacement value. Anything above this and the population grows; below, it shrinks}
In most First World Western Culture, there is a detachment of a child's "pay back" to the parents in favor of some alteristic ideal... The result is the is the children to woman ratio for these countries has fallen below 2.1 Confused (see Fewer: How the New Demography of Depopulation Will Shape Our Future by Ben J. Wattenberg, 2005)
Mexico has fallen below 2.1 Shocked

If you decouple the profit motive their will be few, if any, ARBs Exclamation

Arrow This doesn't mean that you can't have your loving nurturing Dr. Wakeman socializing her battle droid XJ-9,..er Jenny, with a teenage life style at the good doctor's expense... I just means that it would not likely be common if we want to see ARBs in any great number... Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For an nigh immortal being, do you honestly believe it's healthy for any society to have a population explosion of ARBs in the first decade of their introduction?

Small inclusion of ARBs into society seems more logical. Maybe even a village at first.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:
For an nigh immortal being, do you honestly believe it's healthy for any society to have a population explosion of ARBs in the first decade of their introduction?

Smile Yes!
...and even more ALBs for the production lines Brainwashed ...

Coffee! Large scale immigration of divergent culture populations produces some very positive outcomes—both Canada and the United States are examples. Of course the mixing process produces the old Chinese curse of interesting times. Squidly!

* It would be a creative renaissance for mankind that would herald our expansion off this small fragile world. Oooh, sneaky!


Kevin further wrote:
Small inclusion of ARBs into society seems more logical. Maybe even a village at first.
Nerdy Slow introduction has never worked, as proof look at how readily the US took to the Metric system. When introducing any new technology the best integratig force is the market place... Idea think about the electrification, AC versus DC. Cool

Slow introduction allows for ant-technologist, reactionaries, and political entrepreneurs undue influence for a much less satisfactory result. If Edison had time to mount proper political influence battle against Westinghouse, AC power transmission would have been banned! Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's just it, you keep calling ARBs new technology - Technology is owned. Lifforms are individuals who shouldn't be owned. They should deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt until, and unless, they break the law.

By calling ARBs technology, you summarily reduce them to property. Before you know it, we now have Slavery.


Please don't use the metric argument. Metric is an absolute failure at higher levels of math specifically because very few mathematical divisions will divide evenly into the base ten system.

Every single explosive Russian satellite, ESA crashed probe, and Depart of Defense anti-missile missile has been linked directly to corrupted decimalized calculations.

To top it off, Celcius is inaccurate, missing degree variations of up to 2* F. Water freezes at both -1 and 0 Celsius, while retaining liquid form at 0. In Fahrenheit Water is always frozen at 32. When you're dealing with pin point accuracy in extremely sensitive laboratory experiments, Celsius is never used because it has too great a variance.

Also, there's quite a bit of European population centers that ignore the Metric system despite it being the "official system".

Metric has its uses, but America didn't adopt it for a reason when there was a big push (and there was a big push, it actually reached the Senate floor twice). Our track record as being the most successful Nobel prize winners in Science should speak for itself.



Oh before I forget, guess what Jenny episode I saw last night!

The Wonderful World of Wizzly

The robots were created specifically to do one job, and they did it very well, but they lacked individuality and the capacity to think for themselves. When Jenny tried to free them, they basically ran amuck in the real world being unable to cope.

This is a true to life phenomenon called institutionalization. Once inside, you can't survive on the outside. It happens with criminals all the time. How can you guarantee it won't happen on a more severe level to ARBs?! If a banker wants to recoup his losses, he will program the robot to do one job very very well. Now the robot has nowhere else to go!
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