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The dilemma of Rational Robots
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: The dilemma of Rational Robots Reply with quote

Robots with rational though.

The dilemma: Jello!
  • Ownership of such a machine could be argued as slavery; while on the other hand without ownership, they would never be built (with the exception as one-of-a-kind experiments—Data comes to mind) Neutral.
  • To deny such a rational machine existence on the above moral objection is in itself immoral whuuu?


Idea This idea can be further generalized to any rational artificially creature (biological or mechanical) brought into being (built, grown, cloned, creatativity materialized, etc.) by another Rational Being…

So what’s the answer? Brainwashed

It could be simply the old notion of indenturing… Ow.


      Edit:
      Below is a Taxonomy that will
      help clarify discussion in thi tread




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Kevin
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically, parents own their children and their debts until their children are capable of an appropriate self sustaining behavior.

I see no difference with the idea of robots.
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nerdy It is true that evolutions has solved this dilemma in animal kind by rewarding the act of procreation with pleasure and regulating nurture with the carrot and stick of emotions—bliss and anxiety. It is also true that man has regained some control through abandonment, the rhythm method, and birth control drugs.
  • In cultures that require a lot of low paid unskilled labor (such as third world farms or craft industries) you see large families. Typically the male children are working as if indentured; the females are working as if they are chattel. It pays the parents to have lots of kids!
  • In other cultures were there is a social contract between the parents and their offspring to aid one another, the families tend to be much smaller as resources are poured into making a competent adult.
  • In the nuclear family, this social contract is weak if at all existent. Children feel they owe nothing to the parents and even less inclined in having a family of their own. This is why western industrial nations have well below the replacement rate of 2.1 children born per woman (see Fewer: How the New Demography of Depopulation Will Shape Our Future by Ben J. Wattenberg, 2005). Confused

So even with natural born humans, motivated by evolutionary trickery, the dilemma exists. Surprised

Question So what about those artificial rational beings? Neutral

Are they condemned to non-existence?
Sad
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Kugai
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this question was settled by the JAG office at Data's trial
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kugai wrote:
I think this question was settled by the JAG office at Data's trial
First... Thanks for joining in... Kiwi's are always insightful!

Star Fleet’s property rights claim only reaffirmed the first moral asserting—at least for the Star Trek universe—of the dilemma presented, i.e., Rational Beings shall not be regarded as chattel. This was also addressed with Data’s late daughter Lal. It still doesn’t address the last assertion and the dilemma it poses…

For an Artificial (or Natural for that matter) Rational Being to come into existence there has to be some incentive for the resource to be allocated to make that happen. This was cursorily explored with Data’s creation of Lal. The writers tried to use “a sentient beings need to replicate” as Data’s motivation, then bumped her off quick rather than deal with the implications…

In these one off jobs of Prism and Data, the “no-holds-barred certifiable nut-job” mad scientist’s experimentation is satisfactory… but what about the denial of thousands of Data/Lal Rational Robots into Star Trek Federation Space? Apparently Holograms are okay to de facto enslave…
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Kugai
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of the problem with that too is that JAG Phillipa Luvoise's original ruling applied only to Data, and by extension, to all Soong Type Androids (which, at the time, would have also included Lore if his existence had ben known of - A scary thought.)

Lal was, to some extent, covered by that ruling, but was unfortunately a pawn in one Admiral's agenda. She did advance faster than Data Humanwise, but unfortunately this proved detrimental to her Neural Net and eventually led to the Cascade Failure that destroyed her.

My thought on this matter is, that by the time Data sacrificed himself during the Shinzon incident, I would suspect the matter had been resolved in Federation Legal Jurisprudence.


As far as Holograms go, The Doctor on Voyager provided enough of a test case by the time the ship returned home to allow that matter to be well on the way to some resolution.
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holograms and Androids are capable of suing the Federation for intelligent status.

See the Voyager episode where the Doctor sued his publisher for making the crew of Voyager look bad.

Let me tell you about my kitteh:

(this is from an email I sent to all of my close friends)

Quote:
Today, I had a bad headache.

Again.

YES AGAIN!

So I wrapped my head up in my soft blanket, which my kitty sunshine loves btw, and Sunshine meowed a little meow, then she meowed a big meow. So I finally turn over. She jumps over from the window to my corner desk, walks over to my bed. Walks right up to my face, and touches her nose to my nose (usually she stays a few inches away), but not today, she touched noses. She kissed (by breathing in and out), a couple times, then proceeded to step by my face forcing me to move my head.

I thought, OMG sunshine I was here first! But I didn't say anything, I just moved my head and gave her pets. She ignored the pets, and proceeded to stamp down every inch of the bed blanket.

It took me a minute to realize -- SHE WAS FLATTENING MY BLANKET! Just like I do for her when it's family time, she watches me straighten the blanket for her to sit on it.

Well

She finished patting down the blanket, she brushed up next to me, and then walked over to the other side of the bed so she could watch me and watch the window.

My blanket was completely flat.

:O

I did not train her to do this.

She never did this before.

She did it for me and not her, specifically because I was sick.

She is amazing Very Happy

ima go hug her right now




My sunshine is a person. She has intelligence and self awareness. She thinks for herself and thinks of others. She has nightmares and dreams.

But at the same time I can't allow her to do things I'd allow someone else because she has natural tendencies. For example: I cannot let her go outside because loud noises scare her, and she becomes very frightened. Therefore I have to keep her inside 100% of the time.

It makes me sad, and if this were someone else I'd be called an abusive person. But if I do let her outside, she would certainly die from the foxes, or horrible drivers in my neighborhood. She is a very timid kitty.


Now, does this make me a bad person because I'm not affording her the same rights I enjoy to leave the house? Or am I being proactively cautious in direct consideration of her abilities and intimate knowledge of her actions?

edit: and yes, I did go hug my kitty just like I'ma gonna go hug her right now Very Happy
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin wrote:
My sunshine [kitten] is ... intelligence and self awareness ... thinks for herself and thinks of others ... has nightmares and dreams.

Kevin’s heart felt anecdote is very instructive…

It demonstrates the differences between a Rational Being (Kevin) and one that just Sentient (Sunshine the kitten).

Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi—What is permitted Jupiter is not permitted a cow…
... and for good reason. The sentient and rational Kevin can navigate through human society while the only sentient Sunshine can only exploit the periphery as a cat. If Sunshine had the same Rights and Privileges as her master then the symbiosis that benefits both parties would neither likely be able to exist nor certainly pursued.

So what would happen, if by some miracle, a kitten who demonstrates a high degree of vicarious learning became an eight-year-old human girl (with cat ears) overnight! Most certainly she would view her master as her father—no sniggers here please… The dynamic would change would it not? The emotional bonds would allow for the father-daughter relationship to develop and Sunshine would eventually enter the world as a Rational Being.

But this is because the right evolutionary buttons had been pushed in her masters head… I doubt that Kevin would normally volunteer to be an adoptive parent and Child Protective Services would doubt his motives if he did—and mores the pity.

Nerdy As I’ve alluded to earlier, the children-per-woman ratio has fallen well below the 2.1 replacement rate for most industrial cultures. Japan is already suffering a demographic shift to the elderly with few of the young willing to take care of them. They are going full-tilt into making humanoid “helper” robots… The age of Ghost in the Shell will be soon upon us.


Skin-Jobs of Blade Runner and the Living Artifacts and Artificial People of Heinlein’s Friday are not far behind…
Thus the relevance of this string… mrmfmh?
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I agree with much of your post, I ask though that you alter the definition of Rational to "Mature Rational".

Sunshine does rationalize. She has tried to learn and perform actions, while also judging certain situations.

However, her rationalization isn't as mature as say a 12 year old child.

Sunshine can Rationalize that I am sick and I need help. She Rationalizes that she can help me. She took a good 10 minutes of deliberation before she came to the only rational conclusion that: "Kevin is sleeping on a messy bed. I will fix his bed like he fixes for me. That makes me feel better, maybe it will help him."

While you can debate the actual words she uses, that is what she must've come to terms with.

However, she has a limitation of maturity in her rationalization. She doesn't know that I need medicine, because she doesn't understand human medicine.

She only understands her medicine - the medicine of attentive monitoring, comfort mothering and giving kisses.

Quote:

So what would happen, if by some miracle, a kitten who demonstrates a high degree of vicarious learning became an eight-year-old human girl (with cat ears) overnight! Most certainly she would view her master as her father—no sniggers here please… The dynamic would change would it not? The emotional bonds would allow for the father-daughter relationship to develop and Sunshine would eventually enter the world as a Rational Being.


If my sunshine became an 8 year old girl overnight, I would worry.

Does she think I am a paternal figure? or does she think she is married to me?!

I wonder what Sunshine thinks of our relationship. She hugs me, holds me tight when she needs, or when she thinks I need. She wakes me up with morning kisses, and then walks down stairs. I routinely mention she is my "soul mate". But, what does she think? Are we what she considers to be "married"? are we "brother and sister"? Or are we simply a special "family" unit without the physical link?

She has a special meow when she calls for me, far different than the meow she uses for my mom. So I know she differentiates between us.

It's times like this I wish I could speak cat, just so I can know how she views the world.

Quote:
But this is because the right evolutionary buttons had been pushed in her masters head… I doubt that Kevin would normally volunteer to be an adoptive parent and Child Protective Services would doubt his motives if he did—and mores the pity.


Responsibility.

Responsibility is more than someone simply being responsible, it also has to deal with their physical and mental limitations.

My physical limitations prevent me from adopting a child. Not because I'm abusive, or mean, or crippled. My physical limitations are Money, general Welfare capabilities, living status.

If I had a higher living status, if I had money, and if I had the capacity to physically take care of someone (i.e. no headaches and no need to work), then yes, I would adopt a child. Unfortunately, I am restrained Sad


However, if somehow Sunshine turned into an 8 year old girl overnight, then I would do everything in my power to take care of her Very Happy I would need help from my mom and my dad, but she would live a happy life because I would not abandon my responsibility I swore to her when she was a kitteh trapped in that horrible cage. Very Happy

However things would change. For instance:

She'd no longer sleep in my room, let alone my bed!!!! Shocked
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qm3ster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:37 am    Post subject: Everyone's posts are too long now! My opinion: NIGGERS!! Reply with quote

Everyone's posts are too long now! My opinion: NIGGERS!!
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Everyone's posts are too long now! My opinion: *******!! Reply with quote

qm3ster wrote:
Everyone's posts are too long now!
A bit off topic... Neutral but most screen displays have a slider on the edge that will allow you to jump over all that verbiage.... Confused
qm3ster also wrote:
My opinion: Loud Foghorn !!
Shocked Actually I think you are capable of expressing a lucid opinion on the topic of the Rational Robot Dilemma I've proposed...
And I would like to read it...
no matter how long your post! Wink
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oleander2323
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Um... Reply with quote

With all due respect, I wouldn't worry too much about your cat turning into an 8-year old child. It sounds like you've already anthropomorphized the hell out of it.

Is this a conversation about the actual ethical dilemma of synthetic intelligence, or are we just referencing Star Trek and our cats?

-Becky
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oleander2323

1. I didn't anthropomorphize the hell out of anything. My kitty does do these things, she does speak, she does communicate - however she does it in her own kitty fashion. Is it so difficult for you to believe she doesn't?

2. The turning into a girl thing was a joke hypothetical that was used to further discuss the concept of evolving rational thought in relation to the previous discussion.

3. We are discussing "ethical dilemmas".
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duLapel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Um... Reply with quote

oleander2323 wrote:
Is this a conversation about the actual ethical dilemma of synthetic intelligence, or are we just referencing Star Trek and our cats?

Good to read you again oleander2323... and point taken... Embarassed

but I think the discussions and their asides so far are the ground work to get a handle on the initial assertion...
  • Ownership of such a machine [Artificial Rational Beings] could be argued as slavery; while on the other hand without ownership, they would never be built...
The first part has been beaten to death in literature since Karel Čapek's 1920 play R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots) and remade ad nauseum in television (Star Trek, etc.)... It takes a great deal of hand waving to get past this bit of cultural baggage! Brainwashed

It's the second part of the initial assertion "...while on the other hand without ownership, they would never be built..." That has been carefully avoided (typically with the Artificial Rational Being's death or Pinocchio "real-boy" conversion). Confused

I think it has been avoided because the second second assertion:
  • To deny such a rational machine existence on the above moral objection is in itself immoral
begs to be answered... Neutral and that is not a conondrum so easily waved off with moral proclomations... mrmfmh?
thus the dilemma! Neutral
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish to totally screw with this thread in a way you never imagined duLapel

Thomas Jefferson - he who wrote that all men should be free, owned slaves, had sons with a slave, and treated her more like a wife than his wife.

Had Thomas Jefferson released his slaves, he would've been kicked out of office, would not have held his presidency, his slaves would've been acquired by the state officials and resold into slavery, and another white slave owner, possibly far worse than Jefferson, would've ascended to his political seat (the last of which actually did happen once he retired).

However, Owning Slaves Is Immoral.

Is Thomas Jefferson moral or immoral?

Did he help his "slaves" out by legally keeping them as slaves until he died?

Or was he a bastard who was blinded by greed and ownership?
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